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Madness Central: How are things going with you?

 

Clive Langer: Fine, well we finally finished the album.

 

MC: Right.

 

CL: Which is good.  So it's quite exciting this year for Madness.

 

MC: Yeah, with the 30th and everything.  I finally got my boxset in the mail.  I've been listening to the entire album.  You guys did okay on it, it doesn't sound too bad.

 

CL: Oh good.

 

MC: You guys tried something different on it, but I'll ask you about that in a little bit.  I have about 20 questions for you, is that okay?

 

CL: Yes that's fine.

 

MC: Alright.  I hear you just got back from the States, are you working on a project here?

 

CL: Well, I've just been helping a new band, one of the singers from the Holloways.  I did an album with a band called The Holloways a few years ago and now they've split up and the singer's started a new band and he happened to know someone in Malibu who had a studio so we went there to record.

 

MC: Well, that's not too bad, Malibu's kind of nice.

 

CL: Yeah, it made a pleasant change.

 

MC: Alright, let me start you off with this question then.  It's Madness's 30th anniversary which means it's pretty much your 30th anniversary as a production team of Langer/Winstanley.  Did you think you'd make it three decades worth working with Alan when you first produced 'One Step Beyond'?

 

CL: Erm definitely not.  We never thought about any longevity, I suppose as the years went by and we started studios and that we'd be working together but when we started definitely not.  I mean their first album was just a one-off, we didn't realise it was gonna do that well.

 

MC: When did you realise?

 

CL: Well, when it was selling, you know when we had a couple of hits.  I mean I was still in a band and I didn't think I was a record producer for quite a few years even though I was producing records.  I still thought of myself as a writer and a guitarist in a band.

 

MC: That was The Boxes, right?

 

CL: Yeah.  It was probably two or three years later really, about '82 when I suddenly kind of realised it was all happening and it was gonna last awhile.

 

MC: I'm glad it did, you guys put out some really great work over the years.

 

CL: Thanks, thank you.

 

MC: I'll be speaking with Alan in a few weeks and he's going to get the same question.  You and Alan are a team, but who does what?

 

CL: Well he came to it from the engineering side and I came to it from the songwriting/arranging side so I don't actually touch the desk and he's hands on the desk all the time really.

 

MC: Right.  Well, you mentioned that before you started up as a producer you were a musician and a songwriter with Deaf School.  What does being a musician bring to the production, what parts of that found its way into the Madness sound?

 

CL: Well I think quite a lot if you listen to the early Deaf School sound.  Quite a few songs were piano driven and we were influenced by similar things.  That kind of Madness sound you could hear on the first album from Deaf School on a song called 'Hydro High'.  It was kind of based on the Newman-style piano and I mean Mike was a Deaf School fan as well so he knew what we were doing and it meant I could kind of develop what I'd sort of started with Deaf School I think.  Madness were more piano driven than Deaf School were but it was like stepping from one band to another really as we had similar likes and dislikes in music and similar influences.  The good thing about being a producer, I was a few years older than them but I'd just come out of a band and I could relate to their situation whereas there are a lot of producers around who weren't really in bands or had been in bands ten years earlier.  I'd just left a band so I felt very in touch and it was easy to communicate with the bands that I've worked with at that time being kind of close in age, and like I said being influenced by the same things.

 

MC: Great.  Is it possible to define what Madness's sound is then, is there anything melded between the band and the producer that is quintessentially Madness?  Kind of an 'a-ha' moment that is unmistakeably Madness?

 

CL: I think something like 'My Girl', I kind of turned up to the session with an 8-track in Pathway and a bit of equipment I had was a chorus-echo and I think we used that on the piano sound and

probably on the sax because at that time Lee was blowing his sax a semitone out so we'd harmonise or chorus his sax to try and kind of make it sound in tune or make it sound obviously slightly kind of out of tune.  We did the same with the piano and I think developing that piano sound which you can hear especially in 'My Girl' were the first steps in defining what Madness's sound was which was really piano driven.

 

MC: Is there a particular sound for Langer/Winstanley or are you kind of all over the place, do you have anything in particular you can point out that's your trademark?

 

CL: I think in the 80's people thought we had a sound and I don't really know what that was.  It has to do with Alan's engineering, we used a lot of brass, real strings and real brass and real instruments so we weren't producers of electro-pop or that New Romantic side of pop music in the 80's.  We normally got the bands that played traditional instruments but we tried to kind of make them sound quite exciting and poppy.  It wasn't like we were using traditional instruments and just using their natural sound, we'd probably work on them in the way that the Beatles had started, experimenting with organs, pianos and doubling things like a guitar with a 12-string or you'd double a piano with a clarinet.  De-tune and double track things to get a special effect so I think we were a poppy kind of production but not that reliant on drum machines and synthesisers and computers.

 

MC: How do you approach producing both with Madness and other bands.  Do you have a style or a direction in mind before you get started or do you hear what the band has written and then take your cue from that?

 

CL: No I always take it from the band and if there's something missing in the band and the band haven't come up with it, I can point in the direction but they have to do it themselves really.  I've spent quite a lot of time in the rehearsal room with bands before going into a studio just to check arrangements and make the most of the songs that they have really.

 

MC: What was it like working on 'One Step Beyond', thirty years on now, do you have any thoughts on that?

 

CL: The first recordings I did, I did on my own on an 8-track.  Then we got 'The Prince' that was the single on 2-Tone and that was an 8-track recording that I did and then they signed to Stiff and I'd worked with Alan before and Alan had worked for Stiff Records before.  They kind of put us together but we were both pleased because we knew each other anyway to do the first Madness record and we just did it very quickly.  It was exciting, we were racing The Specials to see who could get their album out first and it was a pretty fashionable thing at that time, the whole 2-Tone sound that Madness were part of was in big demand, everyone expecting an exciting album and we just recorded it very quickly, I think in about three weeks it was done so it was an exciting process.

 

MC: How was Madness at that first session, were they pretty naive at the time or were they kind of still working themselves out as a band?

 

CL: They were quite naive, I mean Carl wasn't officially in the band so they were still working themselves out as a band but Mike was a good musician, Bedders was good, Woody was solid but they were like a gang of kids really because the nucleus of Madness were a group of kids who had grown up together really so they were quite in tune with each other but not always in tune with a piano. They were naive in the recording process but we had to get on with it and it was just done really quickly.  Some bands kind of hold things up and question everything but we didn't have time for that, we just got on with it.

 

MC: How is this for symmetry, I understand that the piano used on the new album is the same one that was used to record 'The Prince'?

 

CL: Yeah well I went into the studio with Liam Watson, to Toerag because when I was first asked to work on the new record, there were only about four members of Madness who were actually playing together at that time, the others had kind of drifted off.  I said that the only way I'd be interested in recording again was if we did it in a completely different way than when they did their covers album, the ska album and I didn't want to fiddle about with multi-layered keyboards and computers and everything so it was kind of back-to-basics and to do that we had to see what it was like to record on 8-track with Liam Watson at Toerag. When we got there, he'd brought the piano from Pathway and so we used that same piano and then later we transferred all the stuff and put it onto Pro-tools and then carried on with Alan.  The beginning of the album session, we spent about two months in Toerag which was really good fun and exciting and we kept a lot of the work that we did on that session.

 

MC: Did you try anything radically different with 'Norton Folgate' that you might not have tried on the earlier albums?

 

CL: No, not really.  What I was trying to do was, initially they had so many songs and they all wanted to do their songs and there were songs left over from years before and I couldn't really decipher this time round what were the really strong ones and what were the weak ones, they were all pretty strong so we decided we'd record everything.  That was different, instead of going in and saying 'right, we've got twelve songs' we said let's record everything and I thought it would have been a faster process than it was, you know, in the end they probably got as much attention as the material we recorded on 'Wonderful' or the later Madness albums in the 80's.  Initially I just wanted to work very quickly and not to be too precious but that didn't really work, we carried on and in the end it was quite a similar process, just a lot of songs to get through, more than we'd normally deal with.

 

MC: Yeah, well, like you said, many of the songs on 'Norton Folgate' have been in the works for many years now, did it help going into the studio with a sizeable selection of songs ready?

 

CL: Yes, you know it made it fun, it meant that you weren't stuck on one song for too long.  The initial recordings were very fast, the backing tracks, the pianos.  I mean the problem with this last album was that Suggs and Mike both had other commitments so initially we had to rush their recordings and later in months to come when we thought we were gonna finish the album quickly we didn't because we had to patch things up because we'd rushed it when we first started recording.

 

MC: What did take 'Norton Folgate' so long to get finished, they'd been talking about this album now for at least five years, were you part of the process the entire time?

 

CL: Well, recording-wise, yeah like I said I started with Liam Watson at Toerag must have been three years ago and we didn't really record the bulk of the album until a year ago. I mean Chris had left the band, we didn't know if Bedders was gonna play in the band, and then because Chris had left Lee wasn't very keen so I was kind of working with Suggs and Mike and Woody mainly and then Carl would pop in now and again so there wasn't really a full Madness.  They had their own problems, they changed management and re-focused and re-formed then we were really fully focused last year when we went to do the whole album.

 

MC: Is there anybody you wanted to work with but you didn't get the gig?

 

CL: Well I was flown across America a couple of times to meet the Foo Fighters who seemed really keen to work with us for their second album and I was disappointed when we didn't get it so that would have been nice but after working with David Bowie, I kind of had fulfilled most of my dreams.  John Lennon was dead and I've worked with Robert Wyatt so there weren't many people that I really wanted to work with but I was disappointed when we didn't get the Foo Fighters gig.

 

MC: Ten years ago we kind of touched on this when I talked to you last time, from memory serving you it was Kevin Rowland and Morrissey you were talking about, but is there anybody who is such a pain in the arse that you wished you hadn't gotten the job with them?

 

CL: In fact I'm friendly with Kevin now, I remember him more for the positives than the negatives but there's quite a few people who seem to be a pain in the arse at the time but I can't think of anything specific really.  Normally I look back at albums warmly that we've done.  There was a band in America that we got kicked off the sessions called ?????? personally I think they were a bit misguided I mean I don't know what they think of me but it's quite an intense process making an album, and people can tend to get a bit paranoid.

 

MC: Yeah, I think you're being diplomatic, because last time you kind of skirted around it but you were kind of saying Morrissey wasn't all that fun, and that after Kevin Rowland you were given all the tough assignments after him.

 

CL: Yeah, well you know I think we've said all that, you know we spent a year and a half with Morrissey and a lot of these people have got their own individual ways and they're a bit 'out there' but when I look back on it they're some of the greatest artists really and they may not be normal as such but they certainly weren't boring.

 

MC: I would be remiss if I didn't take this opportunity to talk to you about this, Morrissey is a favourite of mine, and actually we're seeing him in concert tomorrow night here in Albuquerque.

 

CL: Oh really?

 

MC: Yeah, it's the end of his tour, his 'Tour of Refusal', and then he's taking a break before going onto Europe.  So, how was it working on 'Kill Uncle' and 'Bona Drag'?

 

CL: For me it was really good in lots of ways and you had to kind of dedicate yourself to him. We worked in the country in a residential studio so you kind of lived his life and ate the food he wanted to eat and things like that but the great thing was, musically, there was a lot of freedom and we could create the backing tracks before we even knew what the songs were gonna be like.  I mean he'd say 'I like that backing track - I've written a song will you record it'.  And then we'd record it and he'd come and do the vocals so you wouldn't know until you'd recorded the track what the song was and then when you did know what the song was you might suggest re-recording it or whatever but the whole process was refreshing compared to just going in and doing your normal band album.

 

MC: Just as a personal observation, I think 'Sing Your Life' is one of your best works.

 

CL: Oh right, yeah, brilliant.  It was good for me because I got to write some of the backing tracks for some of the songs with Morrissey, you know like 'November Spawned A Monster', there was a couple of tracks and that made it more of an intimate session than most and I really got to know him and got to like him a lot.

 

MC: Did you bring Bedders in on that, was that you're doing, to get him to play bass on the album?

 

CL: Yeah, I mean he was a big Madness fan, Morrissey, so we used to have Suggs and Carl come down and visit us when we were recording and we had Bedders on the record so the 'Piccadilly Palare' kind of tracks were Madness-influenced.

 

MC: You also had Seamus Beaghan on the album - he's been with Madness quite a bit too.  Anyway, let's get back to Madness because I think the subscribers of Madness Central are going to be ticked off if I keep on talking about Moz.  Is there any particular Madness album or song that stands out from the others as your finest work?

 

CL: I think probably 'Our House' and the production on 'Our House' and 'It Must Be Love' were quite a pinnacle for us.  It was a period of trying to make the perfect pop record in the 80's.  I think 'Our House' is probably the best production-wise.

 

MC: How about an album, and I'll throw in my feel on this, 'Keep Moving'?

 

CL: What 'Keep Moving' the album?  I was actually very proud of 'Mad Not Mad', no one else liked it really but because Mike had left I had to kind of fill the hole and keep the band together so 'Mad Not Mad' meant a lot to me personally and I worked probably the hardest on that album.

 

MC: It took quite a few months to get that album together, didn't it?

 

CL: Yeah, a lot of rehearsing, we had two keyboard players to take the place of Mike and it was just very detailed.  What were you going to say about 'Keep Moving'?

 

MC: Well, it was just that it was my favourite album that you guys did, not just because of the songs but I thought it was the best production work. It's very clean.

 

CL: Right okay.

 

MC: Ten years ago you said 'Wonderful' was a celebration of Madness, to celebrate their 20 years. How does 'Norton Folgate' stack up, another celebration for their 30th year?

 

CL: Yeah I think so, I mean mainly because of the track 'Norton Folgate' it kind of shows a new side of Madness which is more of a mature, you know, the way it describes the history of London, it's just much more of a mature piece of work, just that song so I think that's a great way to celebrate their 30th anniversary with a piece like that.

 

MC: We got basically treated to a double album with the boxset. Is this the largest lump sum of Madness songs you've produced for an album or were there songs previously that you produced for the earlier albums that just weren't used ultimately? Saying that knowing 'On The Town' was a song back in the 'Keep Moving' era and 'Hunchback of Torriano' was recorded during the demos of 'Wonderful'.

 

CL: Yes well it was the largest amount of songs I've ever done with Madness in one go, whether they were new or old, we were recording them all freshly so.

 

MC: How was that process then, was there a lot more work to be done or was it pretty smooth?

 

CL: Yep it was pretty smooth, like I said we had to get the tracks down and we had to get the keyboards down because Mike was going off doing other things, Suggs had a TV show to do and had to go off to Europe so there were certain pressures we were working under and that's probably why it took quite a long time when we went back to it and re-did stuff around Christmas time.  It went smoothly but it had it's intense moments as most albums do.  I think the release date was moved a few times.

 

MC: Yeah, quite a few times with Trinity going under.

 

CL: Yeah.

 

MC: What do you think of the choice of 'Dust Devil' as the lead single? would this have been your choice or is there another song you feel would have been better suited as a single?

 

CL: No, I wouldn't have released it as the first single, I would have released 'Forever Young'.  We did a new version of 'Forever Young' which was a slightly more upbeat version which you probably haven't heard which would have been better for the radio.

 

MC: Actually, I have heard it, Chrissy Boy played it for me.

 

CL: Right okay.  Well, he doesn't like it much but I thought it was good for the radio.

 

MC: Yeah, it's a little bit more upbeat. Did you use a lot of drum machine on that one?

 

CL: No, no we used Woody.

 

MC: Oh really?

 

CL: Yeah, but initially it was produced by another team and then it was given back to us but it was all real drums.  I think they recorded it to a machine and then added the drums later and then we added the drums again. It was a slightly complicated process but we gave it to them and then we took it back from them and overdubbed on it.  Mike, myself and Suggs all really liked it, but Chris and Woody didn't like it so I don't know if it will ever see the light of day.

 

MC: Well, hopefully so. It's kind of a shame to do all that work and not have it out in the public domain.

 

CL: Well I really like the version on the album but it's just a bit moody and ploddy whereas as this one had a bit more bounce.

 

MC: Right.  Well, that was actually my observation for 'Forever Young' as a single, was that it's an incredible song but like you said it's kind of ploddy, it just loped along and not what people would expect from Madness, or maybe it was more like 'Grey Day'.

 

CL: Yes.

 

MC: Are there any standout songs to you on the album?

 

CL: I think 'Norton Folgate' is a definite stand out song but I really like 'Rainbows' and I like, er what's that Mike song about meeting at the Hippodrome... God I've forgotten the title now...

 

MC: 'Sugar and Spice'.

 

CL: Yes I really like that and 'Rainbows', those two and 'Norton Folgate' and in fact we recorded all of those in the very early stages of the session at Toerag.  I think they're my favourites. I like the sound of the backing tracks as well, you know, the 8-track kind of sound.

 

MC: 'On The Town', that was an interesting one, Nick Woodgate, Woody's brother, played me a demo he had from back in 1983 with Mike singing 'On The Town'.  It sounds quite a bit different to what it eventually came out. Did you work off that original demo or was it something Mike brought back to the sessions later on?

 

CL: Yeah it's something he brought back. I don't think I ever heard the original demo.

 

MC: It's bizarre. The lyrics are there and the rhythm is there and the tune is there but it sounds quite different, you know, more ska than it is.  You know, the impression I got from the piano bits in 'On The Town' was that it's a little bit like Del Shannon's 'Runaway'.

 

CL: Yes, well, I wanted Mike to emphasise that side of things because it wasn't really working, it was just sounding like a track from one of their old albums and he was playing it with more of a ska beat and it just sounded as though it was a bit too easy. we'd done it all before a million times.  So then we worked on the piano part and it came round to this kind of 'Runaway' riff and then I think it started to get quite exciting.

 

MC: Yeah, it actually turned out to be a great song.

 

CL: Yeah, good, good.  No I like it a lot, it's a good adventure, I like the ending.

 

MC: How is the ending on that one?

 

CL: Well it's just the outro, it gets quite cinematic, she kind of repeats 'On The Town' but the strings are really good and it's just going round and round but it gets quite big.

 

MC: You use strings quite a bit more on this one than you did on 'Wonderful'.

 

CL: Well they just help with Madness, they help gel everything and takes it away from being a pub band, puts it into another area really.  Because we've always used strings with them, it's not alien, it's not like we're adding something that Madness would never have, two thirds of their hit records have had strings in them.

 

MC: How do you think Madness fits into the pop culture nowadays, do you think they're timeless enough that they can make a go of it or do you think they've had their day already?

 

CL: I think there's a place for them, they're not gonna change the world anymore but I think there's a place for them to release an album and be proud of it and hopefully sell some copies and have some sort of revival this year.  Again, a celebration as well as a revival.

 

MC: It's kind of in the public domain this bit. Some of the guys in Madness, Chrissy Boy and Chas, have trouble getting on at times. As a producer, is it also your job to keep the personalities and egos in check so the music can get rehearsed and recorded?

 

CL: Yeah sometimes it's my job to inform them who's gonna be in the studio that day so we don't have any friction but they were fine during this recording.  They've all got their own personalities and their own lives to lead so I just try to organise a schedule and hope that they turn up when they're supposed to really!  They all get together to play live so they all have to be together quite often and I think they just had a great time in Australia together so they're very capable of getting on with each other.

 

MC: How about with other bands, do you find yourself playing referee with other bands?

 

CL: Yeah it's part of the job, you know your job is to get the record made however you get it done, if you're a nursemaid or you have to be strict and take them out and be their mum or whatever, whatever it takes.

 

MC: What do you see as the main responsibility of a successful music producer?

 

CL: Well to make a record that everyone's proud of.  A record company would say a record that sells and I'd say a record that we're proud of.

 

MC: Okay that was quick!  I've asked you this before and you were remarkably humble the first time so let's see if you're more forthcoming this time.  Amongst Madness fans you are perceived as the eighth and ninth members of Madness. How do you feel about that particular accolade?

 

CL: Well we are the closest to them out of anyone from the outside but it's not something I think about really.  I see Suggs quite a lot socially so I feel like their friend, sometimes they don't like me if one instrument isn't loud enough in the mix or whatever but I feel like they're all my friends.

 

MC: The 80's were an optimistic decade and the music producing mirrored that optimism, the 90's were more anchored and serious and again your productions reflected that.  Do you feel the global socio-political climate takes a part in how you approach a project, I suppose what I'm saying is does what's going on in the world influence your work?

 

CL: Not really, not consciously, it was very weird for us in the 80's because we were kind of part of the left-wing socialist music business kind of scene with Madness and with 'Shipbuilding' by Robert Wyatt, Elvis Costello etc and yet I was making more money then than I have done since or previously.  I didn't really feel guilty but it was a bit weird that the country was going through quite a rough time under Thatcher in the early 80's and I was making more money than ever before and eating rather well.  I feel like I just get on with it and the world goes by and I kind of bounce off things but I'm not conscious or making any particular social comments that relate to the politics of the day.  I'll leave that to others really even though I've made records with Elvis and Robert Wyatt who are political and I'm sympathetic towards all that but I'm not a kind of warrior.

 

MC: You've had hits with scores of bands in the last 30 years, I mean Madness and Dexy's to start out with, then there's Bush, Republica, Elvis Costello, Morrissey, David Bowie.  What have you learned? Are you any wiser for the experience?

 

CL: I think I've learnt not to look up to famous people so much.  They're just people.  I've met a lot of very intelligent, very talented people whose fame isn't that important to me or their wealth but I think their personalities are and their talent.

 

MC: Do you have any big plans for the rest of 2009?

 

CL: Not really.  I'm helping my son who's in a band called Man Like Me.  I've just got a house on the Isle of Wight so I'm backwards and forwards there.  I've just had a grandchild and daughter and we've got Deaf School reforming in September to do a couple of weeks worth of shows so I'm looking forward to that.

 

MC: Wow that's great, so Bette Bright's coming back then too, huh?

 

CL: Yep she's coming back.

 

MC: Oh, that's just amazing, some people are gonna have a real kick out of that, I think a lot of people were too young to see Deaf School when you first came out, you know, the Madness fans.

 

CL: Well we're doing a week at the Liverpool Empire from about the 13th of September.  I think we're playing for a week up there so  if anyone could make it to Liverpool that week it would be great to see them.

 

MC: That'll be good information for the Madness Central folks, I'm sure some of them will get there.  Okay, I just wanted to ask this really quickly. You and Alan got a chance to work with No Doubt on 'Everything In Time' - how did that come about?

 

CL: Well actually knowing No Doubt were big Madness fans and they played with Bush as well and we were invited along to see them in America to possibly work with them on an album.  I think Gwen really wanted to work with us so she just thought it was a good opportunity to work on her brother's song and to work with Mike Barson on the piano so it was really more of a solo project for her than a No Doubt project even though it went under their name.  As you know she was brought up with Madness as her favourite band.

 

MC: I used to run into her and her brother, I'm from Southern California as well and her brother and I would actually compete for Madness records at the local record stores.

 

CL: Really, wow.  So you're a Californian then?

 

MC: Yeah, Orange County.

 

CL: Right.

 

MC: In parting then, do you have any mind-blowing anecdotes that you want to share with us, you know, from your years working with Madness, something that never made the news wires before?

 

CL: Oh God....I'm afraid not that I can think of at the moment.  I think over the years we've probably talked about most of those things.  I think Alan might have something for you.

 

MC: Yeah, okay, I'll bug him about that.

 

CL: Are you coming over to England?

 

MC: I might be coming over for Madstock, it depends on whether my college roommate is getting married that weekend or not.

 

CL: Okay, well it would be nice to see you and in fact Man Like Me will be playing that show as well so maybe you can catch them.

 

MC: Yeah I've heard of Man Like Me although I haven't heard any of their music.  Do they have it posted online?

 

CL: Yeah if you go to their Myspace.

 

MC: Okay I'll check it out and if I can make it over then it would be great to meet you, I've been listening to your music now for thirty years.

 

CL: Okay well I'll try and think of an anecdote for you as well.0

 

MC: Well, thanks for taking the time to talk to us.

 

CL: Okay, thanks, bye.