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Three Wonderful Days on the Westside
An Extended Discussion with Producers Clive Langer and Alan Winstanley
In 1985, minus one keyboardist named Mike Barson, the Nutty Boys of Camden moved in to Westside Studios in London to record what, at the time, would be their final studio album together under the name Madness. The result was the work "Mad Not Mad", a record saxophonist Lee Thompson unflatteringly referred to as "a polished turd." This isn't really the way most fans of Madness wanted to remember the lads, but for 14 years, that's exactly how things were left. A year later, in 1986, Madness officially split up.
Fast forward six years, and witness the Renaissance of Madness, with the Richter-inducing Madstock gigs in London leading the way for many "reunion tours" and Madstocks to come. The fans were there, the band was there, and aside from the tell-tale signs of a decade past (didn't they have more hair and less wrinkles last we saw them?), one could squint just so and make believe they were back in the 80's listening to the greatest hits anew for the first time. Something was missing, though.
Clive Langer and Alan Winstanley with Madness - Westside Studios, 1999
What made Madness of the 80's so appealing? Chart-topping hit after chart-topping hit some would say. And how do you acquire these chart-topping hits? You have to release new material. For all the reformation gigs each year since 1992, Madness was denying the fans the one essential factor in their equation for success: They needed a new album.
Fast forward yet again, this time to 1999, and enter through the doors of Westside Studios once again. 14 years on, Madness took their place to the front of the mixing board, writing and rehearsing what was to become their first new album since "Mad Not Mad". Now the 20th year since their debut "One Step Beyond", once thing remained constant for every one of their six studio albums of the 1980's, and that was the team that cut their production teeth on that first nutty vinyl in 1979. When it came time to choose the producers for what was later dubbed "Wonderful", there really was no other choice than Clive Langer and Alan Winstanley.
In March of 1999, Clive and Alan generously gabbed with us from Westside Studios, while the "Wonderful" album was taking shape, composing three days of anecdotes of old and inside scoops of new. While I was sure we'd make a pest of ourselves almost straight away, pelting the producers with our own anorak questions and those even more anoraky questions garnered from other Madness fans, the Langer/Winstanley Team were more than accomodating. Quite honestly, I got the feeling fairly early on the first day that they were kind of enjoying themselves, evidenced by their invitation to continue calling back during the recording of "Wonderful" (which I gratefully took them up on). Presented here now, in its first permanent web presence, are those three days of conversations with Clive Langer and Alan Winstanley, Madness Producers Extraordinaire.
Interview by Steve Bringe
Assisted by Alan Redpath
Transcription by Jackie Reid
March 15, 1999 Two Weeks in to Eight to Ten Weeks
Steve Bringe: Good to meet you. Thanks guys for taking the time to answer our questions.
Alan Winstanley: That’s OK.
Steve: Did my buddy Peter (Gardner) make it in to take some photos of you guys?
Clive Langer: Yeah.
Alan W: He’s here, yeah.
Steve: OK, great. Well, according to Trisha, I’m supposed to say this since we’re going to be posting this to our website, so this is Clive Alan and Alan Winstanley who are being represented by World’s End, US, and I think that takes care of that.
Clive: OK.
Steve: So, well I think the first question to help us out, our subscribers, is maybe you can give us an idea of what production is about. What is it that you guys do with Madness? If you can give us a kind of a synopsis of what goes on in production.
Clive: Well, this is Clive. Basically, it just means you take the song, I mean it depends what they come up with, whether it’s a finished song or a good idea of a song, and you follow it through till it’s on your album, which means rehearsal rooms, recording, mixing and cutting and pressing, so each one of those processes takes a bit of time and there’s quite a lot involved.
Steve: Sure, well you guys have done what, six Madness albums in the past. What type of time limits are you looking at?
Clive: What, for each album?
Steve: Yeah.
Alan W: Well they all got progressively longer as the albums went on. The first album, One Step Beyond, only took 3 weeks and by the time we got to Mad Not Mad it was 3 months. And all the other albums in between, you know, Absolutely was probably about 5 weeks and it just got a bit longer each time I think.
Clive: Yeah, this one, we’ve just started one at the moment which is just for their 20th anniversary and it should take probably about 10 weeks, that’s five day weeks.
Steve: Well, we sent you along the questions from our subscribers and I think they’d get kind of peeved at us if Alan and I manipulated and monopolised the entire time we have with you. So maybe we could move on to some of those.
Clive: OK.
Steve: Why don’t we start of with one of Peter’s since he’s sitting right there. Peter is asking about, looking back, what album do Clive and Alan feel they did their best production job on?
Alan W: Well, I think they’ve all got good things going for them. I know ‘cos he thought Keep Moving which I think it’s a good album production wise but I even think going back to the early albums, even Absolutely I think has got good production on it.
Clive: Yeah, I was the most pleased with Mad Not Mad. I mean it’s very 80s and very dated now but it was quite ambitious and there was a lot of work to do seeing as Mike (Barson) had left. And so, it was, I thought, quite an achievement to get it made. So I was kind of proud of that one. Whereas the first album was very easy, it was mainly a matter of recording and checking the arrangements and then they got more and more complex as they went on.
Alan Redpath: I’ll go for a question that Julie asked about, with which album do you feel that Madness peaked if at all and why?
Clive: Right. Well, it’s hard to know, I suppose their peak probably was Our House, even though when House Of Fun came out it was Number 1 over here with the Greatest Hits with Complete Madness was Number 1 as well. But probably around that period and Our House over here, It Must Be Love. But they seemed to be around for a few years. I remember at Christmas time we always used to be in the top 5 with a single, which in England is a sign that you’re doing well. So that went on for about 3 years in the early years. I mean a real peak, probably Our House.
Steve: Are you looking at topping that this time then? You guys are working on their first studio material in over 10 years. Are you looking to maybe be topping that or at least help to repeat the same success that you guys did with them in the 80s?
Clive: Well, we’re not really looking at that sort of competitiveness at the moment. I mean, hopefully it will do well but it’s more just a celebration of Madness and just for them to celebrate their 20th anniversary. I think it’s hard to compete with their success in the past, obviously it would be really brilliant if we could do that but they were very fashionable and young and they were a part of what was happening. I mean, now it’s very different.
Steve: Well, I can’t remember who asked this one but we’ve been given the question over and over again over the past couple of weeks so I’ll ask this. The folks want to know what they can expect from the new album and more specifically, are songs like Wonderful and Saturday Night and Moondance, are they going to be showing up on the new album?
Clive: Some of those songs, not all of them. And at the moment it’s beginning to sound like just a slightly more mature Madness but still with all the identifiable things that they were known for, a bit of humour, obviously the piano and it’s very English.
Steve: Right, well, we’ve just found out that Maverick intends to pick them up here in the United States.
Clive: Well, I think that’s what they’re hoping for but nothing’s signed yet.
Steve: Right, well it looks like it might get some international distribution which would be the first time in quite a while for Madness.
Clive: Yeah, well this is a proper Madness album, I mean it’s the first one in 14 years I suppose so it’s not like a live album or a compilation.
Steve: Speaking of live albums, do you guys fear your jobs are being threatened? (Universal Madness, a live album recorded in 1998 in Los Angeles) just came out with Madness doing their own production. What do you guys think of their style?
Clive: I haven’t heard it.
Alan: No, I haven’t heard it either (laughing).
Steve: Well, drop me an address at the end of this and I’ll send you along a copy. We’ve got quite a few from Goldenvoice if you’re interested in seeing what your competitors sound like (laughing)
Alan: Right, OK.
Steve: Maybe we should get back to the script!
Alan R: Well, I’ll skip to Paul’s question first actually. How did they feel about being dropped by Madness in 1988 for the The Madness album? Was there any ill feeling back then?
Clive: No, I remember at the time we were busy doing Hot House Flowers and it wasn’t, it was an offshoot of Madness so it didn’t, there were no regrets, no bad feelings and we’ve been friends ever since the last album that we all did together.
Alan R: Yeah. What did you think of The Madness as an album?
Clive: I really liked that single …
Steve: I Pronounce You?
Alan W: Yeah, I liked that. Some of it I didn’t go for that much but I really liked that song.
Steve: Yeah, it was a little bit different for them, they sounded like they actively tried to change their style quite a bit to become a completely separate band but it still retained the catchiness, at least that’s what I thought. OK, we’re done pontificating! How about this one, a long time buddy of mine, Derek Wilson here asks did you ever imagine that you’d see the year 2000 and did you think that Madness would still be making music then?
Alan: Well, I haven’t lived to the year 2000 quite yet (laughing). I’m hoping I will be and no, I didn’t think Madness would still be making music then, not when we started off 20 years ago, no.
Steve: Well, I guess as a follow up, did it surprise you when they split up or did you see it coming, you guys work intimately with the band?
Alan: Well, I suppose Mike (Barson) leaving one album earlier, it was probably on the cards that it would, you know, soon come to an end.
Clive: Yeah, well they seemed to, I mean, they had a really good run.
Steve: Yeah, well coming from the Stateside Madness fan, they’re really picking up steam here again mainly following on the trails of bands like No Doubt and stuff who promote them like crazy so kind of good timing on your part.
Alan R: Joe asks, how prepared were they on entering the studio, how much change took place during recording and how open were they to your suggestions?
Clive: They were pretty prepared, we rehearsed for 3 weeks and we listened to all the songs they’d been doing individually and together in different formats over the last 3 or 4 years and compiled the best of, and then rehearsed for 3 weeks. So we were pretty prepared by the time we came into the studio here.
Alan R: Since 92, since Madstock, there’s always been rumours about them going back into the studio and everyone’s been wondering what was going to be happening when they went back in.
Steve: Yeah sure, especially since they’ve starting performing new songs and rumours just started flying around when were they going to be heading back into the studio?
Clive: Right, well it’s taken a while, I mean it’s hard because Suggs has had his solo deal and people have been busy doing different projects. So it’s been difficult. I would’ve liked it if we’d managed to do it a couple of years ago because we knew that that Ska thing was taking off on the West Coast really a few years ago. I mean the No Doubt album came out 2 or 3 years ago now didn’t it, so we were kind of aware of what was going on there. And that other band who are like Madness …
Steve/Alan: The Bosstones
Clive: Yeah.
Steve: Actually, there’s quite a few of them, there’s Save Ferris, there’s the Aquabats, Dance Hall Crashers, just a whole ton of US bands.
Clive: I mean it actually feels quite late now to be coming out with an album in a way but we’ll see what happens. I mean we’ve kind of forgotten about competing with that, and there isn’t really much ska on this new album, it’s more of the Madness kind of English pop.
Steve: Well, yeah, personally I thought that’s what saved them. There’s great bands like The Specials and such that they started out with but those bands that adhered too much to that ska sound and never really progressed whereas Madness took off because they tried different stuff.
Clive: Yeah, well we heard that on the first album obviously with things like My Girl and the second album, Embarrassment we knew that they weren’t really a ska band anyway. I mean they played some ska numbers and then they got kind of pulled into the whole movement with 2 Tone but if you saw The North London Invaders right at the beginning, they were probably more influenced by Roxy Music and Kilburn and The High Roads and 10cc and, you know, English pop, kind of rock stuff.
Steve: Well, I know that this question’s down in the questionnaire somewhere so I might as well ask it now, as a kind of a follow up to what you just said. How much do you guys feel that you have influenced their sound by being the producers and such?
Clive: Well I felt a bit of an influence because I was in a band called Deaf School and we used to have a piano and we used to play solos that sounded like Thunderclap Newman, you know, that kind of honky tonk piano thing.
Steve: Sure. Deaf School, that was Suggs’ wife right?
Clive: Yeah, she was in it as well. And so they used to come and see us and that’s how I got to know them really so I suppose there must’ve been a bit of an influence going on. But then they were definitely their own characters and it wasn’t like stealing, it was just like, you know, another generation coming up and using the influences around them. Which at the time were kind of Split Enz, Deaf School, Kilburn and The High Roads, people like that.
Alan R: Danny asks what’s the best band you’ve worked with apart from Madness?
Clive: Well, there’s quite a few. I remember The Hothouse Flowers were quite a lot of fun and quite similar to Madness in the sense that they seemed like they were kind of brought up together and quite close. They come to mind, I don’t know what you think Alan?
Alan W: I think Bush was good, working with Bush, especially the first album and, even though we only did 2 tracks with him and he’s not a band, but David Bowie, that was exciting, working with him.
Steve: That was Absolute Beginners and Dancing In The Streets, right?
Alan W: Oh, there was that as well, sorry I was thinking of, we did another track with him called That’s Motivation which was in a film, in the film Absolute Beginners. And then we did Dancing In The Street with him and Jagger, that was just a lot of fun, you know, it was just a bit of a laugh really but I think we’ve been lucky to work with a lot of good bands, probably a lot of bad ones as well (laughing).
Clive: Mainly good ones really, when you think back.
Alan W: Yeah, yeah. Lloyd Cole and the Commotions.
Clive: We were always, we were kind of given the difficult ones quite a lot, after we did Dexys we were always handed the ….
Alan W: (laughing) Yeah, I think they thought if we could handle Kevin Rowland, we could handle anyone.
Clive: Yeah and then we had Morrissey (laughing).
Alan W: (laughing) Yeah.
Steve: Yeah, well speaking of Morrissey, I know that that question came up here somewhere here too. We noticed that Chris and Bedders and Suggs did work with Morrissey on some backing tracks once upon a time. Did you guys have something to do with that?
Clive: Yeah, I mean if you notice, they’re the albums that we produced.
Steve: Yes, exactly. So I guess what I’m saying is, did you guys set this up to get ….
Clive: Yeah, well because Morrissey was a Madness fan as well. So when we said we need some backing vocals from crowds or whatever, he’d suggest Suggs or, if I’d say I was seeing Suggs or something, he’d say get him along, you know.
Steve: Yeah, well I ran into Morrissey at the Sparks concert in LA back in November, I talked to him for a little bit. I was asking him about Madness, he spent about 10 minutes telling me how much he loved the band.
Clive: Oh, right, that’s nice, he still likes them.
Alan R: Which member of the band is the most comical to work with?
Alan W: (Laughing) Well, they’re all pretty, humorous in their own way. I think in your question you asked who was the clown didn’t you? I suppose Lee’s the clown. But they’ve all got a great sense of humour, they’re all good fun and they’re all pretty funny really but I suppose Lee’s the real clown of the band, as you can probably tell by him flying round the stage.
Alan R: Yeah, all the little stories you hear in the tour programmes and stuff certainly make him out to be the clown.
Steve: Here’s one from Anne Marie. What is the attitude, atmosphere in the studio with Madness, are they laid back and casual or are they serious and single minded?
Clive: They’re pretty laid back really, I mean there was a bit of nerves at the beginning of the rehearsals and I was taking it very seriously ‘cos I suddenly thought, “Fucking hell, we’ve got to try and compete with that old stuff we did”. And you know, that’s not easy because it’s hard to remember what we were doing then. And it was such a kind of high standard and stood out and things had changed so much. It was hard to know how to, what kind of game plan to have, you know, should they sound modern, should there be a dance element or should it just be natural Madness? Should it sound like they were young kids again or should it, you know. So it’s quite nerve wracking in a way because the record companies are expecting us to come up with all the answers. So I was taking it very seriously to begin with but then I kind of relaxed after a couple of weeks because the songs were good and they were playing pretty well when they concentrated (laughing). Like they do live, I mean the rehearsals are crap and then they go out and play live and they’re brilliant. So they’re a bit like that, you know.
Alan R: Alex Ingram is asking how do you see the nutty sound fitting in to the late 90s charts in Britain, now saturated by contrived bands and teenage starlets?
Clive: (Laughing) I think there’s kind of room because if you look at the English charts at the moment, we’ve just had Blondie at Number 1 and I just got this album yesterday, the new Wilko album which is like nothing new but it sounds new because everything else sounds similar at the moment. I mean, there’s not that much that’s very exciting, you’ve got Fat Boy Slim and things like that which are OK but there’s nothing that’s, I mean, you know, a Blur album came out yesterday and what I’ve heard of it doesn’t sound that exciting so, it’s not like Brit pop a few years ago or when dance suddenly came or drum and bass or whatever. I think the charts are kind of open for something that’s just good and fun and, you know. So, we’ll have to wait and see though.
March 16, 1999 If It Only Had A Chorus
Steve: Hi Clive, how’re you doing today?
Clive: Fine. Alan’s just kind of busy but he’ll be joining us in a bit.
Steve: OK, well, did you want to get started without your partner?
Clive: Yeah, yeah, sure.
Steve: OK. Well, the first question we’ve got for you today is actually one that is kind of an accolade that bounces around on our list quite a bit. Most of our list subscribers consider you and Alan to be the eighth and ninth member of Madness. How do you feel about that particular accolade?
Clive: Well I feel good. But it’s, I mean you know, they’re the band and we’re the producers. It’s a funny one that isn’t it. I don’t know quite what it means but I do feel very close to them and if you can be if there were to be any extra members then I suppose we would be them.
Steve: (Laughing) Well, you take a look, you guys produced every one of those studio albums, they bring you back in to do the Madstock and then the remasterings so your style, your touch, you’ve added quite a bit to the sound of Madness.
Clive: Well, I see Suggs a lot socially and everything but we’re all quite close, you know, so that makes a difference I think.
Alan R: From Adele, she says what are your fondest memories of working with the boys and which song or album reminds you most of those memories?
Clive: Oh God! (laughing) Well there’s quite a few, the first album was quite exciting ‘cos it was so quick. I think we did it in about 5 weeks and I just remember no-one had any money and we were pretty young and naïve and everyone was experimenting really with the whole thing. And, so that was a good memory and then probably next, there’s lots of memories, I mean, if you mentioned each song, probably memories attached but I think when we did House Of Fun, that was quite exciting because that track didn’t have a chorus and the head of the record company came in, Dave Robinson, and said, “Well, that track would make a single if it had a chorus”. And we said, “Well, leave us alone for the weekend”, and we wrote a chorus and then edited it in to the song, which in those days was quite difficult and that was kind of good fun and quite a strong memory.
I think just being with the band in, we used to record in central London, in this studio that was way above Oxford Circus, which is one of the busiest shopping areas in London and we used to look out the window. We were about, I don’t know, 9 floors up and just watch these people like ants coming in during the day and then disappearing at night and the whole place being empty the next time you looked out the window and I remember things like that, funny things, you know, like recording over Christmas and seeing loads of people. And while we were recording, we’d kind of say things like, It Must Be Love had come out as a single and it would really kind of cheer us up because we’d suddenly hear it on the radio and people would be talking about it. You know, I mean there’s a lot of memories really. It’s hard to pinpoint one particular one.
Steve: Yeah, don’t you just love those nebulous questions? (laughing)
Clive: Yeah.
Steve: Well, how about this one then? I’m going to try and nail you down on some of the song titles. I hope you don’t mind us squeezing you like this but we want to try and get a little bit of insider information for our subscribers.
Clive: Right.
Steve: OK, I’ll name off some songs that were written by Madness but never released and maybe see if you can confirm or deny if they’re going to be considered for the new album. Actually Heat UK, Heat Magazine published a couple of songs as well like Going To The Top, sound familiar?
Clive: Yeah, that’s going on.
Steve: OK, well let me name some of the older songs that we know about if you don’t mind. Wonderful or You’re Wonderful?
Clive: Yeah, that’s going on.
Steve: Great, OK, Perfect Place?
Clive: No.
Steve: OK, Remembering?
Clive: There’s a track called, no that’s not actually, no. There’s something that’s got a title that’s very close to that.
Steve: OK, could you tell us the title?
Clive: Well, for some reason I was told by, the Management sort of said don’t tell everyone the titles, all the titles.
Steve: OK (laughing)
Clive: But I don’t really understand why but I don’t want to get in trouble with them. But I don’t mind going denying or …..
Steve: OK, well that’s actually what we were thinking so here we go. We’ve been on the research train today …OK, Ghost Of Reverend Green.
Clive: Definitely not.
Steve: OK, Wizard?
Clive: Yes.
Steve: OK, Saturday Night?
Clive: Well that’s half the title, yes.
Steve: Saturday Night, Sunday Morning?
Clive: Yeah, that’s the whole title.
Steve: OK, Lola?
Clive: No.
Steve: Moondance?
Clive: No.
Steve: OK, Alligator With A Stanley Knife?
Clive: No (laughing).
Steve: Do you remember some of these songs?
Clive: No, I mean, well I know the ones they’re working on. Yeah, Moondance I remember.
Steve: Yeah OK. Here’s another one, how about Precious One?
Clive: Nope.
Steve: OK, well there’s the ones that are in Heat and they attributed it to you and the guys in the studio right now so we won’t even bother you with those. OK, well that’s more information that we were expecting. Oh, actually, they mentioned one song, 4 am.
Clive: Yeah.
Steve: 4 am, now is this the same one that Barson wrote for Suggs and they recorded with Suggs?
Clive: Yep. It’s a different version, it’s a Madness version.
Steve: Yeah, that’s absolutely brilliant because, you know, there are songs like The Tune that I would absolutely loved to have heard Madness perform. So, well then, thank you very much for that one. Let’s go on to the next question, that’s going to be some kind of cool information that’ll get our subscribers going.
Alan R: Yeah, this sort of leads on from 4 am actually. What do you think of Suggs’ and Lee and Chris’s solo careers?
Clive: With the Nutty Boys I kind of liked all the lyrics and the rhythms and things, I thought they were lacking in some melodies but that could be the way that Lee sings. Yeah, so I liked the whole thing, I used to go and see them and, you know, I like them. And with Suggs’ stuff, I thought it was good, really good. You know, if I want to be super critical, occasionally lacking a chorus here and there but especially the last album I thought was really good but maybe a bit too subtle for a lot of people.
Steve: The Three Pyramids Club?
Clive: Yep. They were really good lyrics and stuff.
Steve: Yeah, unfortunately, that one kind of took a nose dive.
Clive: Yeah, but Warner’s were going a bit funny at that time. The guy that was looking after them, who was the head of Warners, who was looking after Suggs, left. So all of a sudden, everything was just pulled away, you know.
Steve: Oh, it probably didn’t hurt that it was attached to the movie The Avengers either.
Clive: Yeah, no that didn’t help at all. (laughing)
Clive: Oh, Alan’s turned up now so I’ll get him on the phone.
Steve: Great. Hi Alan, how you doing?
Alan W: Hi, fine thanks, how are you?
Steve: Very good thanks.
Alan W: Good.
Steve: Bright sunny day here in New Mexico (laughing).
Alan W: Wish we could say the same.
Steve: Well, let’s go back to that opening question now Geordie, ‘cos I’d actually like to get Alan’s input on this one. What we asked Clive a little bit ago Alan was most of our subscribers consider you and Clive to be the eighth and ninth members of Madness. We were keen to here how you felt about that accolade?
Alan W: Sorry, who thinks we’re eighth and ninth members?
Steve: Most of our subscribers, Madness fans out there kind of look at you as being the eighth and ninth members, kind of unofficial, but you’ve been there since the start and it would be silly to deny that you guys had didn’t have some sort of an influence on the final sound of their production so, how do you feel about that particular accolade?
Alan W: Well, I’m quite flattered really but I’ve never thought of myself as the eighth or ninth member. I don’t know about Clive, I don’t know what Clive’s answer was but yeah, it’s quite flattering if people think we are (laughing).
Steve: Well Clive’s answer was actually remarkably as humble as yours so (laughing).
Alan W: Yeah, just a couple of humble old blokes! (laughing)
Steve: So, well I guess that takes care of that one. Our subscriber, Stevie Figgis has asked, has the band and you being back in the studio recording the material, has it inspired the writing of any other new material? I think where she’s going with this is she’s hoping that there’ll be a follow up album.
Clive: Well, they were happy to carry on writing but we had enough material to be getting on with. So, probably by doing the album, it stopped the writing. But while we were rehearsing, they were kind of writing right up till the last day.
Steve: Oh great, great.
Clive: So there’s a lot of songs around between them that we’re not recording.
Steve: Right, well that actually brings up one that, our tape cut off on the last segment of this interview. You had mentioned that there were a certain number of songs that were being recorded, only 12 of them are going to show up on the album?
Clive: Yeah, we’re recording 14.
Steve: OK and whereabouts are you in the recording process now, do you have those songs laid down?
Alan: We’re very early on.
Clive: Yeah, we’re on week two of an eight to ten week project.
Alan W: So we’ve done bass and drums on all the 14 tracks and we’re just starting to do keyboards and a bit of guitar now.
Clive: Yeah, sort of 20% through our time schedule.
Alan R: This one’s from Julie Woodson and she says, is there anything you’d do differently with any of the Madness albums if you could turn back the clock?
(laughing)
Alan W: Probably not gone to Nassau to record the third one.
(laughing)
Clive: No, probably not because it’s almost like keeping a diary, those albums, so it’s hard to change your life you know. And some of the songs, things like Grey Day, Shut Up, It Must Be Love, we recorded a couple of times anyway to get them right, we didn’t get them sort of right the first time so we went back to them. I mean a song like Grey Day they actually had before we did the first album but then we went back to it and dug it out and recorded it once and it wasn’t really right and recorded it again. So I think most of the things, if we listened to it, we’d probably say we could do it all better but I don’t go back and sort of worry about any of the stuff we’ve done before.
Steve: OK, well actually, here’s one from me. It’s going to be kind of a kiss ass question for you! As a production team, you two are going on better than 20 years together, which is longer than most bands. How did you two hook up initially and what are the working dynamics that keep you two together?
Alan W: Well, we met when I used to work in a studio as an engineer and Clive was in Deaf School and they came into the studio to work. You were doing demo’s weren’t you Clive?
Clive: Yeah.
Alan W: With Rob Dickens and we met then and then Deaf School split and Clive came back to our studios to do his solo stuff with me and then at that point, I’d already started producing. I was doing things like The Stranglers and then Clive called me up while I was mixing a Stranglers album to say would I fancy working with him with Madness, which was at that time, totally a brand new band, unknown to most people. So that was our first proper working relationship, as producers, was on One Step Beyond. But that was how we met wasn’t it?
Clive: Yep, and the working dynamics are kind of obvious probably from that answer because Alan came, he’d been working in studios engineering and producing and I came from being in a band and writing songs. So we came to it from different areas and we still kind of work on different areas really. I mean things cross over but that’s where we come from.
Alan R: OK. Well, the next question is from Noel Wildman and he says, in layman’s terms, what would you say your contributions to the Madness catalogue and how do you think Madness’ music would have been different if they hadn’t had your input?
Clive: Well I think, like I said the other day, that I could use some of the sounds that I’d already experienced with the band I was in, so God knows how they would’ve been different if they’d started recording with someone else but I know there was an influence in there from the stuff, what I’d been working on just sort of progressed into Madness. So that’s where it came from and if they’d worked with someone else, it would’ve come from somewhere else I suppose and God knows what that would’ve been. (laughing)
Steve: OK, compared with other musical acts you produce, this one’s from Julie Woodson again, were Madness easy, average or hard to work with?
Clive: Alan?
Alan W: I’d say they were pretty easy really, you know, they’re easy going and they’re fun to work with and, yeah, I’d say definitely easy compared with a lot of the other acts (laughing).
Steve: Like Morrissey?
Alan W: And Dexys and who else? (laughing)
Clive: Well, they’re probably one of the easiest bunch.
Alan R: Right. This is actually from Steve and he says, some songs were written and recorded while Madness were on the road touring and I’m just flicking through pages here …
Alan W: It Must Be Love, they did that while they were on the road, yeah.
Alan R: It Must Be Love and The Sun And The Rain. Does that mean that you two were called in at, like a moment’s notice?
Alan W: Well, we went off to Newcastle to do It Must Be Love.
Alan R: Off to my homeland, yeah (laughing)
Alan W: I didn’t even know what the studio was called when we went, to start with. In fact we re-recorded it after that again but initially we went there into some bloke’s front room, he had a studio in his front room. We literally walked off the street, through the front door and you’re in his studio and I think that was the only studio in the area where they were touring at the time and we recorded it there for a couple of days but then when they got back to London after that tour, we re-recorded it again. The Sun And The Rain I think they must’ve been on tour in London then ‘cos we did that in London.
Clive: Yeah, that was the only one that we recorded in the middle of a tour. I mean, they probably wrote quite a few while they were on tour but we didn’t record much when they were on tour.
Steve: Great. Actually, here’s one from Alan. When you heard Madness was reforming in 92, what went through your mind? Did you think it was a good thing?
Clive: Yeah, I mean that concert was one of the most exciting gigs if not the most exciting gig I’ve ever been to so it was very exciting, yeah.
Steve: Yeah, I notice right before Night Boat To Cairo, Suggs kind of sends out a little greeting to you Clive.
Clive: Oh right, well, I was standing on the side of the stage behind the PA kind of with them you know, but out of view from the crowd so it was like being on stage. I mean, I was just watching the audience, I wasn’t watching the band much so …
Steve: (laughing) Got tired of looking at their faces huh?
Clive: Well, it was just such an exciting thing to look at. I mean it was night time, it was lit up, there were fires at the back, you know and everyone, the people who were serving drinks and everything in the bars that were surrounding the back actually just left, gave up serving and just came out and were dancing. I mean the whole place was dancing, that’s about 32,000 people and then they did it again the next day. So it was very exciting. I think at the time they were thinking about recording, because it was such an exciting event, they thought about doing an album but it was too soon really.
Alan R: OK, this is from Danny Burke and he says, what’s your favourite and worst song that you’ve produced for Madness?
Steve: Hey, didn’t we already ask this one?
Alan R: Did we?
Steve: I think so.
Clive: I think we had favourite, I don’t know about worst.
Steve: (laughing) Oh man, we’re the epitome of organisation today!
Clive: But it’s hard to remember the worst ones because you kind of put them at the back of your mind I suppose.
Alan W: I remember on Seven in Nassau, we struggled with, was it Mrs. Hutchinson, where we recorded it and it was in the wrong key when we came to do the vocals and we had to re-record everything again. I’m not saying that’s the worst but I just remember that as being not a great experience, really, yeah, it was a pain in the neck (laughing). We spent a lot of time recording it and then Suggs couldn’t sing it, it was in the wrong key for him so we had to spend 3 more days or whatever, it felt like 3 days anyway, re-recording it.
Steve: Yeah but there’s worse places to be than Nassau (laughing).
Alan W: (laughing) Well, we didn’t see much sun, Clive and I, we were stuck in the studio all the time. The only day we took off was Lady Di’s wedding to Prince Charles.
Clive: And that was a waste of time!
(laughing)
Steve: It was that long ago, wasn’t it?
Alan W: Yeah, 1981.
Steve: (laughing) Oh, man!
Alan W: So we watched it on the TV live from England.
Steve: OK, well here’s a personal one from me that I was wondering about, this one actually goes directly to Clive. How did it come about that you got your writing credits on Coldest Day?
Clive: ‘Cos I wrote some of it!
(laughing)
Clive: Some of the melody, part of the melody I wrote. I mean, sometimes with the songs I might suggest melodies and things but it’s pointless getting a writing credit when you’re the producer and you get your credit anyway. But if I thought they hadn’t written an interesting middle 8 or chorus, maybe I’d help them sometimes, you know.
Steve: Right, but this one you actually had quite a bit more to do with then, huh?
Clive: Well I, I think it was a bigger chunk of writing had gone into that one with Suggs, so it just seemed too big to ignore.
Steve: Yeah, well personally, that’s my favourite track off the album, that was the strongest track I thought.
Clive: Oh, good.
Steve: I really thought that one should have been a single. It would’ve been a lot different for them but it was definitely the strongest track off the album.
Clive: Right, well that’s nice.
Steve: (laughing) Yeah, in case you like flattery!
Clive: (laughing) Don’t mind a bit.
Alan R: OK, another from Julie Woodson and she says, did you ever watch a Madness concert anonymously from the crowd and, if so, what were your impressions of the band’s performance?
Clive: I think we’re normally always anonymous when we watch them.
(laughing)
Alan W: Except when you were at the side of the stage at Madstock.
Clive: Yeah, but normally, you know, the crowd don’t look at who’s next to them so you’re just part of the crowd. And so, you know, they’re normally very good live and they’ve been through quite a few transitions with, you know, one tour they took strings, a strings section with them, another time backing vocalists and they’re normally always good. I mean, there’s enough of them to entertain, you know, if one of them’s having a bad night the other 5 or 6 can make up for it.
Steve: Did you guys come out for any of the US concerts last year?
Alan W: No.
Clive: No, I saw them in America on their first tour when they did clubs in New York, that’s the only time I’ve seen them in the States.
Steve: Oh, unfortunate. Those were pretty good concerts last year. You know they’re coming back here in about another 2 or 3 months. So we’re just waiting to hear what the dates are going to be but I guess they’re signed up to do Dave Letterman. They’re going to be on US TV for the first time in, well since Saturday Night Live back in 1983.
Clive: Blimey!
Steve: That’ll be pretty cool, they’re going national out here.
Clive: Yeah.
Steve: Alan, did you have any more questions?
Alan R: I think that’s all the main ones covered actually Steve.
Steve: Yeah, we cut out quite a few of them ‘cos they seemed kind of redundant.
Clive: Yeah, OK great. Well, you know, if you need any little bits and pieces, we’re at the studio every day. You know if there’s something that you can’t work out or whatever.
r /> Alan R: Brilliant.
Steve: Brilliant guys, thank you very much.
Clive: Alright, see you later.
Steve: Yeah, have a good night.
Alan W: And you, bye.
Steve: Bye guys.
March 18, 1999 Alan Winstanley's Wonderful Top Five Minus One
Steve: Here it goes.
Alan R: OK.
Steve: Yeah, OK, fire away.
Alan R: Well, first thing I was going to ask you was what’s the atmosphere in the studio like now that they’ve been in there for a month?
Alan W: Oh, it’s still really good. Really, really good, yeah. I mean, yeah, this is the end of our 5th week now and the atmosphere’s great and recording’s going really, really well.
Steve: Well, you were saying that you were starting up on the guitar and keyboard tracks last time we talked to you.
Alan W: Yeah, we’ve kind of finished the keyboards now and Mike’s gone back to Holland ‘cos he lives in Amsterdam and he’s going to come back, I think the week after next just for a couple of days for any little bits and pieces we need to do but he’s mainly done now. And we’re now, our day is now split up between guitar some of the day, sax some of the day and vocals. So it’s all going, yeah, it’s all going really well.
Steve: Great. Speaking of which, is Lee going to be doing any vocals on this new album?
Alan W: Lee? Yeah, well there’s one song where, at the moment we’ve got Ian Dury singing, the guest singer with Lee as well. I mean I’m not sure if I should’ve told you that yet (laughing), but it’s a bit of a secret at the moment but he’s guesting on one of the songs.
Steve: Oh, that is so hip, I mean they’ve been big fans of Ian forever.
Alan W: Right, yeah. So, it’s one of Lee’s songs and Lee’s singing some of the vocal and Ian sings some of the vocal although we haven’t done Lee’s vocal yet, we’ve done Ian’s but not Lee’s yet. So unless it changes and maybe, I mean we actually did talk about maybe Suggs having a go at singing the lines that Lee’s at the moment going to sing but we don’t know yet. So it’ll either be Lee or Suggs, possibly Lee.
Steve: Oh great, how is Ian doing? Is he feeling well?
Alan W: Yeah, yeah, I mean he is, you know, he’s not well but …
Steve: As well as to be expected.
Alan W: Yeah, exactly, yeah. The day he came in he was, you know, he was in good spirits and he did a good job.
Alan R: Just curious actually, the track, you say it’s a Lee track, would that be Remembering Oh So Clear?
Alan W: No, it’s a song called Drip Fed Fred.
Alan R: Pardon?
Alan W: Drip Fed Fred.
(laughing)
Alan R: Oh, right.
Steve: Actually, before I forget Alan Winstanley, we sent you off a little gift …
Alan W: Have you?
Steve: To the studio so just keep an eye out for it, it should be there in a couple of days.
Alan W: Oh great, thank you.
Steve: Yeah, well no, thank you. So, it’s actually from the guys at Goldenvoice so that probably should give away what it is, but just keep an eye out for it.
Alan W: OK, great, thanks.
Steve: Oh, no worries, thank you. I have a question for you two, for both you and Clive. Are you two coming over for any of the US concerts?
Alan W: We haven’t got any plans to at the moment. It depends what our work schedule is but yeah, possibly.
Steve: Well, if you guys make it out, drop me a note ‘cos I wouldn’t mind buying both of you a brew.
Alan W: OK, great.
Steve: Cos I’m going to be doing the entire tour. It’s actually a short enough tour, I can follow Madness around this time.
Alan W: Right. Oh, brilliant, yeah, if our work schedule allows, we’ll be there. You know, we work quite a lot in America anyway, we haven’t for the last probably 2 years now on purpose just because we did so much for the previous 3 years, we were in the States so much we decided to do a bit more work at home. But in the future I think there’s a couple of things on that might possibly need to be done in America. Los Angeles as well is one of the places we’re …
Steve: Oh, cool deal, that’s my home town.
Alan W: Right, so yeah, if we’re over there, we’ll give you a shout.
Steve: Yeah please do, please do, you know, as many brews, the entire night’s on me, how’s that sound?
(laughing)
Steve: Getting sloshed with the producers! Last time when we had Clive on solo on the phone, we were bouncing odd song titles off him, to see if they might be recorded on this new album. So we have a couple more that people sent in, we want to see if we can bounce them off you.
Alan W: OK.
Alan R: OK well I’ll break it down actually, make it easier. The other tracks that’ve been recorded, is there any of them that are old Madness tracks or are they all new material?
Alan W: It’s all new material.
Alan R: It’s all new?
Alan W: Yeah.
Alan R: Right. So there’s no tracks from the Nutty Boys or anything, ‘cos I know they’re doing 4am by Suggs.
Alan W: Oh, well, 4 am is, yeah, sorry. When I said new, I meant new as opposed to old songs. Sorry, I thought you meant maybe are they re-recording any songs from their previous albums. Yeah, 4am is one that is on the …
Steve: The Lone Ranger?
Alan W: Yeah, it could be, it could be on the album. We have re-recorded that, yeah.
Steve: Well, that would be hip. I remember hearing a Suggs demo version of that where it was probably around the hundred beats per minute. When it finally got onto the album, it was somewhere around 70 beats per minute so they slowed it down a bunch.
Alan W: No, yeah, it’s a bit faster than that I think.
Steve: Yeah. Well, there are some other songs, right after Mad Not Mad, they had songs like Ghost Train and such that came up and then there were some other ones like Winter In Wonderland and Natural Act. Are those tracks that maybe making it?
Alan W: No, none of those.
Steve: Did you remember those songs or not really? Winter in Wonderland eventually became In Wonder on The Madness.
Alan W: Right, no I don’t know that one. And what was the other one?
Steve: Natural Act?
Alan W: No, no, don’t know that one either.
Alan R: Right, well, back to the Nutty Boys actually, is any of the Nutty Boys material going to make an appearance on the new album?
Alan W: No, don’t think so.
Steve: There’s a couple of unrecorded Nutty Boys songs or Crunch songs, however you want to call them now, like Sinners and Saints?
Alan W: Sorry, which one?
Steve: Sinners and Saints or Saints and Sinners?
Alan W: No, not that one.
Steve: OK. So it looks like Lee and Chris are going to keep that one for themselves then.
(laughing)
Steve: If you haven’t heard that song, that song is totally hip.
Alan W: Is it? Oh, OK.
Steve: Yeah. That one reminds me a lot of Give Me A Reason.
Alan W: Right, OK, well, I’ll try and check that one out.
Steve: Yeah, good song, good song. Well Alan, we had an entire list of songs. We mentioned Remembering last time and Clive was telling us well that’s part of the title. Is the entire title Remembering Oh So Clear?
Alan W: Yeah, it’s not called that anymore, I’m trying to think what it’s … That was, oh God, I’m so sorry, I’m trying to think, no, I can’t even think what it’s called now, it’s not called that though (laughing).
Alan R: That was an old Lee Thompson track, the lyrics to it.
Alan W: No, I haven’t got a clue, I can’t think.
Steve: Oh, man!
(laughing)
Steve: Maybe I don’t need to buy you any more beers, huh?
Alan W: Well, I don’t know a song under that title but I’ve heard them mention that title so I know it’s one of the songs we’re doing, it used to be called that but I don’t know which one it is. That’s what I’m trying to say.
Steve: OK, cool, cool. Well, we have the lyrics for it already, which is pretty cool.
Alan W: Have you?
Steve: Yeah, well they posted it on one of their last Nutty Boys comics.
Alan W: Oh right.
Steve: There’s a song that was due to come out eventually and then it never came around.
Alan W: Right.
Alan R: I’ve actually got the lyrics in front of me here if that might …
Alan W: Yeah, go on then.
Alan R: The first line is “The public footpaths were paved solid with speed traps during the fall of 81, Hampstead Heath with snow caps I remember it all so clear.”
Alan W: No, we haven’t got any songs with those lyrics, so we’re not doing that one then.
(laughing)
Steve: Well, there goes that one then!
Alan W: Unless of course they’ve rewritten the lyric of course.
Steve: Right, well there’s a song called Culture Vulture that Lee Thompson wrote too, that one sound familiar?
Alan W: No, that’s not one on the album either.
(laughing)
Steve: OK now I think we should stop hounding him about the songs don’t you Alan?
(laughing)
Steve: I think we’ve run the gammut on these. Well, there’s Johnny The Horse.
Alan W: Yeah, they’ve done that, that’s a good one, a really good one.
Steve: Lovestruck?
Alan W: Yeah.
Steve: OK, We Are Love?
Alan W: Yeah, done that.
Steve: They seem to be getting a little bit myopic here, what’s with the word ‘love’ in all the titles? (laughing)
Alan W: Sorry?
Steve: You know, they seem to be going on this love kick again.
Alan W: Yeah (laughing)
Steve: So, Johnny The Horse is pretty good, huh? Or is that Lovestruck?
Alan W: No, they’re both really good, both of those are turning out really well. Both single contenders at the moment, those two.
Steve: Hey, there’s a good question. Are you guys active in choosing which singles are going to be put out?
Alan W: Yeah, we have a bit of input on that, yeah.
Steve: And so what are your picks? What are your picks out of the new batch?
Alan W: Well those two at the moment.
Steve: You know, I have a live version of Saturday Night Sunday Morning and I think that song is really hip.
Alan W: Well, that sounds great as well, that sounds really good.
Steve: Yeah, of course You’re Wonderful, which is a really good song too.
Alan W: Yeah, in fact it’s an album full of singles.
(laughing)
Steve: Well, they’ve had enough time to come up with them.
Alan W: Yeah, that’s true, yeah.
Steve: But what’s the other one that’s really good? Going To The Top?
Alan W: Yeah, yeah, we’ve been working on that one today actually.
Steve: That’s a pretty good single contender?
Alan W: Yeah, I’m not sure if it’s in my top five but as I said, it’s an album full of singles so it could turn out to be one, yeah.
Steve: Ok, well why don’t we have Alan Winstanley’s number one pick, which one would you like to see as the lead single off the album?
Alan W: Probably Lovestruck I think at the moment. It could pan out slightly different, you know.
Steve: Oh, cool, I’m dying to hear these songs.
(laughing)
Steve: Well, that brings up yet another question. Have the guys been talking about playing any of these on the US tour?
Alan W: I’ve no idea, no they haven’t, I haven’t heard them say what they’re going to play, so I don’t know.
Steve: Well, I understand the guys from Maverick are going to be there from California? From Maverick Records.
Alan W: Yeah, I heard that as well.
Steve: Yeah so it might be a good time to premier some of the new stuff if they want to sign a record deal with them.
Alan W: Yeah, I think, yeah, I think they probably will then, yeah.
Alan R: You’ve mentioned your top five picks and you gave us four there.
(laughing)
Alan R: What would be the fifth?
Steve: See we’ve been keeping count. Alan R: I mean you’ve mentioned Lovestruck, Johnny The Horse, Wonderful and Saturday Night. So what would be your fifth choice?
Alan W: What, sorry what was the thrid one there?
Alan R: You’re Wonderful.
Alan W: Oh right, yeah, yeah. I don’t know, a lot of them are probably tying for fifth.
(laughing)
Alan W: Don’t know, as I say, they’re all really good, you know, it’s going to be difficult really, which is a problem we don’t mind having really.
(laughing)
Steve: No, I would imagine not. Alan W: Oh, OK, great.
Steve: Yeah, well again, we really appreciate you taking the time to do this for us.
Alan W: That’s OK.
Steve: Yeah and like I say, if you get over to the States, first beer’s on me so just drop me a note.
Alan W: Right, will do. OK.
Steve: OK, we’ll talk to you in a few weeks then, huh?
Alan W: Yeah, great.
Steve: Well, actually, how much longer are you guys in there with the band?
Alan W: We’re here until they go over to America so until the 23rd and then they’re rehearsing until, I think they’re rehearsing 26th and 27th, then they go over to the States on the 28th I think. And then we reconvene the end of the following week, which is about the 7th of May, something like that and then we’re in for another 3 weeks then I think, maybe 4. Unless, while they’re away, we might actually do a bit of mixing on our own so we might be here even when they’re in the States but at the moment we’re not. It’s actually not booked so we’re only here for another three weeks I think it is.
Steve: Oh great, well …
Alan W: No, I think three weeks tomorrow is our last day until we reconvene when they get back from the states which is I think’s about May 7th.
Steve: Great.
Alan R: Great stuff.
Steve: Great stuff, absolutely brilliant. OK then we will bug you later, let you get back to your job.
Alan W: OK.
Steve: Rough job that it is!
Alan W: Yeah (laughing)
Steve: And thanks for your time Alan.
Alan W: OK, you’re welcome.
Steve: Have a good weekend.
Alan W: And you.
Steve: Cheers, adios.
Alan W: Bye.
Alan R: Bye.
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